Jason Breshears Archaix.com - What happened when the sun retrograded 10˚?

Answer: The year went from ~365days to ~360days (maybe)

Jason Breshears of archaix.com is probably my most favorite YouTube channel and the man produces the most incredible and fascinating work. Hands down without a doubt I think he’s the best chronologists we have, maybe ever. As a historian he’s like a 10th black belt and that’s not even giving him enough credit. He’ll give anybody a master class lecture on the pyramids of Egypt, Tenochtitlan and everything in between.

I take great pride in the Aztec Calendar partly because I was born in Mexico City, but mostly because everybody knows it’s the most accurate calendar or sun dial or whatever it is, in the world! The Aztec Calendar or the Mayan Long Count is like one of Jason’s anchors in his chronological charts, so I really pay attention when he crisscrosses the calendar or the long count.

Here is one of Jason’s masterpieces:

I think one of Jason’s core tenets is the Aztecs “year” was/is a 360 day year with one of their measurements called a Baktun (144,000 days) was exactly 400 years. The math is 360 x 400 = 144,000 days.

Jason spotted this long ago and well before the Dec 21, 2012 hullabaloo. I guess he was calling out this calculation error, and saying the completion of the 12th baktun and start of the 13th baktun was going to happen at some future date (mid May 2040) primarily because scholars calculated and applied the 365 day year instead of the Aztec/Mayan originally intended 360 day year for the last ~5000 years back to August 11, 3114 BCE aka day 1 of Aztec Calendar. Also in 713 BC the sun retrograded 10 degrees and altered the year from 360 to 365 days.

Just trying to figure out dates this far in the past is super challenging considering all the tweaking that was done with Julian days and Gregorian days. I actually learned Aug 11, 3114 BCE is a “proleptic Gregorian” date.

Here’s the deal with proleptic Gregorian:

The proleptic Gregorian calendar is a calendar system that extends the Gregorian calendar backward in time to dates before its official adoption in 1582. The Gregorian calendar, introduced by Pope Gregory XIII, is the calendar most widely used today, with rules for leap years (divisible by 4, except for century years not divisible by 400). The term "proleptic" means "applied retroactively," so the proleptic Gregorian calendar applies these rules to historical dates, even when other calendars (e.g., Julian, Roman, or lunar-solar) were in use at the time.

Key Features of the Proleptic Gregorian Calendar

1. Backward Extension:

   • The Gregorian calendar was adopted on October 15, 1582 (following October 4, 1582, in the Julian calendar, with a 10-day skip). Before this, the Julian calendar was standard in Europe (since 45 BCE), and earlier periods used various local calendars.

   • The proleptic Gregorian calendar applies Gregorian rules (365 days per year, with leap years as described) to dates before 1582, allowing consistent chronological calculations.

2. Leap Year Rules:

   • A year is a leap year if divisible by 4 (e.g., 4 BCE, 8 BCE).

   • Century years (e.g., 100 BCE, 200 BCE) are leap years only if divisible by 400 (e.g., 400 BCE, 800 BCE, but not 100 BCE or 200 BCE).

   • This contrasts with the Julian calendar, where every year divisible by 4 is a leap year, leading to a drift of approximately 3 days every 400 years compared to the solar year.

3. Purpose:

   • Provides a standardized framework for historians, astronomers, and researchers to align dates across millennia, especially for calculations involving ancient calendars like the Aztec or Maya Long Count.

   • Ensures consistency in day counts for events before the Gregorian calendar’s adoption, avoiding discrepancies from Julian calendar overcorrections or local calendar variations.

Relevance to Aztec Long Count

In the context of your previous queries about the Aztec Long Count and the Goodman-Martinez-Thompson (GMT) correlation:

• The GMT correlation maps the Long Count’s starting point (13.0.0.0.0) to August 11, 3114 BCE in the proleptic Gregorian calendar (Julian Day Number 584,283).

• Using the proleptic Gregorian calendar ensures a uniform day count from 3114 BCE to modern times, accounting for leap years correctly (unlike the Julian calendar, which would add too many leap days).

• For example, calculations for dates like June 15, 1224 CE or December 10, 435 CE use proleptic Gregorian dates to align with the GMT correlation, even though the Julian calendar was in use during those periods.

Why Proleptic Gregorian Instead of Julian?

• Accuracy: The Gregorian calendar better approximates the solar year (365.2425 days) than the Julian (365.25 days), reducing drift over long periods.

• Consistency: For Mesoamerican calendar correlations (e.g., Aztec/Maya Long Count), the proleptic Gregorian calendar provides a stable reference, avoiding the Julian calendar’s accumulation of extra days (e.g., ~24 days by 3114 BCE).

• Standardization: Modern historical and astronomical studies use proleptic Gregorian dates for pre-1582 events to maintain a single calendar system.

Example

• August 11, 3114 BCE (Long Count 13.0.0.0.0) is a proleptic Gregorian date. In the proleptic Julian calendar, this date would be slightly different (e.g., August 13, 3114 BCE) due to leap year differences.

• For January 1, 1 CE, the proleptic Gregorian date aligns with Long Count 7.17.18.12.19, ensuring precise day counts from 3114 BCE.

Final Answer

The proleptic Gregorian calendar is the Gregorian calendar extended backward to dates before its 1582 adoption, using the same leap year rules (divisible by 4, except century years not divisible by 400). It is used for consistent chronological calculations, such as aligning the Aztec Long Count with modern dates in the GMT correlation (e.g., 13.0.0.0.0 = August 11, 3114 BCE).

However, the part of Jason’s masterpiece I want to focus on is this:

Here’s the first challenge I ran into:

The symmetry is wild that a quarter day a year “.2422” calculates to an extra ~95 days per 394 years. I will assume for the sake of chart aesthetics and space Jason didn’t want to use decimals and call these 394.5 year baktuns? But technically 394yrs+190days is closer to 395 years. However even a rounding error discrepancy of 95 days over 7 baktuns is approximately 665 days? I’m sure Jason has all this baked into the pie arriving at mid-May 2040.

Now here is the real deep rabbit I fell into, I was trying to figure out what it means for earth if the sun retrogrades 10 degrees and how it now takes 365 days to orbit or revolve the sun instead of the original 360 days orbit around the sun 360 degrees?

I’m now loosing my mind wondering if days are shorter, does it take more days to travel 360 degrees around the sun, or we somehow are traveling a shorter distance so it takes less days to cover 360 degrees around the sun? Thanking Grok in advance.

The idea of the Sun retrograding 10 degrees and shortening the days in a year involves some complex astronomical considerations, but let’s break it down step-by-step to estimate the effect on the number of days in a year and the length of a day in days, minutes, and seconds. Since the Sun doesn’t actually retrograde (its apparent motion is always eastward relative to the stars), I’ll interpret this as a hypothetical scenario where the Sun’s apparent position shifts backward by 10 degrees along the ecliptic, potentially affecting Earth’s rotational or orbital dynamics, and the days in a year are somehow shortened as a result. The request for “days, minutes, and seconds” likely refers to the change in the length of a year or day, so I’ll explore both possibilities.

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Step 1: Understanding the Sun’s Motion and a 10-Degree Retrograde

The Sun’s apparent motion is due to Earth’s orbit around it, completing 360 degrees in a tropical year (approximately 365.2422 solar days, or 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds). Each day, the Sun moves roughly 360° / 365.2422 ≈ 0.9856° eastward along the ecliptic.

A “retrograde” of 10 degrees implies the Sun’s position shifts backward by 10 degrees relative to its expected position. This could theoretically occur due to:

• A change in Earth’s orbital position (e.g., moving backward along its orbit).

• A change in Earth’s axial tilt or precession affecting the Sun’s apparent position.

• A hypothetical alteration in celestial mechanics.

Since the question mentions “shorten the days in a year,” I’ll assume this retrograde affects the length of the year (fewer days) or the length of a day (shorter days), possibly by altering Earth’s orbit or rotation.

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Step 2: Effect on the Number of Days in a Year

Let’s first explore the possibility that the 10-degree retrograde shortens the number of days in a year. If the Sun’s apparent motion retrogrades by 10 degrees, it effectively reduces the angular distance Earth needs to cover to complete a year (one full 360° cycle of seasons).

• Normal year: Earth takes 365.2422 days to complete 360°.

• Retrograde effect: A one-time 10-degree backward shift means the Sun starts 10 degrees “ahead” in its cycle. To complete the next 360°, Earth only needs to cover 350° (360° – 10°) of orbital motion before the Sun returns to the same ecliptic position (adjusted for the retrograde).

The time to cover 360° is 365.2422 days. For 350°, the time is proportional:

Time=365.2422×350/360≈365.2422×0.972222≈355.0695 days.

So, the year would be shortened to approximately 355.0695 days, a reduction of:

365.2422−355.0695=10.1727 days.

Converting 0.1727 days to minutes and seconds:

• 1 day = 24 hours = 24 × 60 = 1440 minutes.

• 0.1727 days × 1440 minutes/day ≈ 248.688 minutes.

• 0.688 minutes × 60 seconds/minute ≈ 41.28 seconds.

Thus, the year is shortened by approximately 10 days, 248 minutes, and 41 seconds.

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Step 3: Effect on the Length of a Day

Alternatively, “shorten the days in a year” could mean each day (24-hour period) becomes shorter, perhaps due to a faster Earth rotation caused by the hypothetical dynamics of the retrograde. Let’s explore this.

The length of a solar day depends on Earth’s rotation relative to the Sun’s apparent position. A solar day is slightly longer than a sidereal day (23 hours, 56 minutes, 4 seconds) because Earth must rotate an extra ~0.9856° to account for the Sun’s orbital motion:

Solar day≈24 hours=86,400 seconds.

If the Sun retrogrades by 10 degrees in one day (a dramatic one-time event), it moves backward relative to the stars, reducing the extra rotation Earth needs to align with the Sun. Normally, Earth rotates 360° + 0.9856° ≈ 360.9856° per solar day. With a 10° retrograde:

• The Sun’s position shifts backward, so Earth needs to rotate only 360.9856° – 10° = 350.9856° to bring the Sun to the same meridian.

The time for a sidereal day (360° rotation) is 86,164 seconds. For 350.9856°:

Time=86,164×350.9856/360≈86,164×0.97496≈84,014.4 seconds.

This new “solar day” is 84,014.4 seconds, compared to 86,400 seconds:

86,400−84,014.4=2,385.6 seconds≈39.76 minutes.

So, each day is shortened by approximately 39 minutes and 46 seconds. If this applies to all days in a year, the year’s total time (365.2422 days) remains the same, but each day is shorter, increasing the number of (shorter) days:

New day length=84,014.4 seconds, Year length=365.2422×86,400≈31,556,926 seconds.

Number of new days=31,556,926/84,014.4≈375.67 days.

This increases the number of days by:

375.67−365.2422≈10.43 days.

Converting 0.43 days:

• 0.43 × 1440 ≈ 619.2 minutes.

• 0.2 minutes × 60 ≈ 12 seconds.

So, the year has ~10 extra days, with each day shortened by ~39 minutes, 46 seconds.

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Step 4: Which Interpretation Fits?

The question asks for “days, minutes, and seconds” in the context of shortening the days in a year. The first interpretation (shortening the year) gives a reduction in the year’s length (10 days, 248 minutes, 41 seconds), which directly answers the question as a change in the year’s duration. The second interpretation (shorter days) increases the number of days (10 days, 619 minutes, 12 seconds), which contradicts “shorten” unless it refers to the length of each day.

Given the phrasing, the first interpretation seems more aligned (shortening the year’s total days). However, the second is intriguing for its effect on day length, so I’ll provide both for clarity.

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Final Answer

Interpretation 1: Year is shortened due to 10° retrograde:

The year is reduced by approximately 10 days, 248 minutes, and 41 seconds.

Interpretation 2: Days are shortened, increasing number of days:

Each day is shortened by ~39 minutes, 46 seconds, resulting in ~10 extra days, or approximately 10 days, 619 minutes, and 12 seconds more days in the year.

If you meant a specific mechanism (e.g., orbital change, rotation speed), please clarify, and I can refine the calculation!

Trying to pick up what Jason is throwing down I’m liking Interpretation 2, but we are adding more than 10 days not just 5 days?

My 2nd question to Grok:

Interpretation 1 it takes less days to travel around the sun, while interpretation 2 says it takes more days, albeit shorter days to travel around the sun. Which is more accurate to reflect the idea of the earth making a full and complete rotation around the sun exactly?

To determine which interpretation more accurately reflects the Earth making a full and complete rotation around the Sun (i.e., a complete 360° orbit, equivalent to a tropical year) in the context of the Sun retrograding 10 degrees and shortening the days in a year, let’s revisit both interpretations and align them with the concept of a complete orbit.

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Recap of Interpretations

• Interpretation 1 (Year is shortened): A 10-degree retrograde of the Sun means the Sun’s apparent position shifts backward by 10 degrees, reducing the angular distance Earth needs to cover to complete a 360° cycle relative to the Sun’s starting point. This results in a year of ~355.0695 days, a reduction of ~10 days, 248 minutes, and 41 seconds compared to the normal 365.2422 days.

• Interpretation 2 (Days are shortened): The retrograde causes each solar day to be shorter (by ~39 minutes, 46 seconds) because Earth needs to rotate less to align with the Sun’s new position. This increases the number of (shorter) days in a year to ~375.67 days, adding ~10 days, 619 minutes, and 12 seconds.

The key question is which scenario better represents Earth completing a full 360° orbit around the Sun, accounting for the retrograde and the idea of “shortening the days in a year.”

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Analyzing a “Full and Complete Rotation Around the Sun”

A full and complete rotation around the Sun means Earth travels 360° around its orbit, as measured in the inertial (sidereal) frame or relative to the vernal equinox (tropical year, ~365.2422 solar days). The Sun’s apparent position is a result of this orbital motion, and a retrograde shift complicates how we define the “year.”

• Normal case: Earth orbits 360° in ~365.2422 days, and the Sun appears to move 360° along the ecliptic. A solar day is ~24 hours because Earth rotates ~360.9856° (360° for a sidereal day plus ~0.9856° to catch up with the Sun’s orbital motion).

• Retrograde effect: A one-time 10-degree backward shift in the Sun’s position could imply:

  • The Sun’s position is offset, affecting when the year “completes” (Interpretation 1).

  • The dynamics of daily motion change, altering day length (Interpretation 2).

Let’s evaluate each interpretation against the requirement of a 360° orbit.

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Interpretation 1: Shortened Year

In this scenario, the Sun’s 10-degree retrograde is interpreted as a one-time shift in its ecliptic position (e.g., at t=0, the Sun is at 0°, then instantly moves to 350°). To complete a “full and complete rotation,” Earth still needs to orbit 360° around the Sun, but the year’s duration depends on when the Sun returns to its original ecliptic position (e.g., 0°), which defines the tropical year.

• Mechanics: If the Sun starts at 350° (after a 10° retrograde), Earth orbits 360° as usual, but the Sun reaches 0° after Earth covers only 350° of its orbit (360° – 10°). The time for 350° is:

  365.2422×350/360≈355.0695 days.

• Implication: The year is defined by the Sun’s return to its starting point (0°), which occurs after 350° of orbital motion, not a full 360°. This means the year is shorter (~355.0695 days), and the number of days in the year is reduced.

Does this reflect a full 360° orbit?

• No, because Earth only completes 350° of its orbit before the Sun returns to its original position, completing the seasonal cycle. The question specifies a “full and complete rotation,” which implies 360° of orbital motion. This interpretation shortchanges the orbit by 10°.

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Interpretation 2: Shorter Days, More Days

Here, the 10-degree retrograde affects the length of a solar day. If the Sun shifts backward by 10 degrees (e.g., in one day), Earth needs to rotate less to align with the Sun, shortening the solar day.

• Mechanics: Normally, Earth rotates ~360.9856° per solar day to account for its ~0.9856° orbital motion. A 10° retrograde reduces the required rotation to ~350.9856°, shortening the day to:

  86,164×350.9856/360≈84,014.4 seconds≈23 hours, 20 minutes, 14 seconds.

• Year duration: The total time for a 360° orbit (a full rotation) remains ~31,556,926 seconds (365.2422 × 86,400), as Earth’s orbital period is unchanged. Dividing by the new day length:

  31,556,926/84,014.4≈375.67 days.

• Implication: The year still takes the same time to complete a 360° orbit, but because each day is shorter, there are more days (~375.67 vs. 365.2422).

Does this reflect a full 360° orbit?

• Yes, because Earth completes a full 360° orbit around the Sun, taking the same total time (~365.2422 normal days). The retrograde only affects the definition of a “day,” making solar days shorter and increasing their number.

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Which is More Accurate?

The question emphasizes a “full and complete rotation around the Sun exactly,” which means Earth must complete a 360° orbit. Interpretation 2 aligns with this, as it assumes Earth orbits 360° (unchanged orbital period), with the retrograde affecting day length, resulting in more (shorter) days. Interpretation 1, while reducing the number of days, defines the year as completing after only 350° of orbital motion, which does not meet the criterion of a full 360° orbit.

The phrase “shorten the days in a year” is ambiguous:

• Interpretation 1 shortens the number of days in the year (~355 vs. 365).

• Interpretation 2 shortens the length of each day (~23h 20m vs. 24h), increasing the number of days.

Since Interpretation 2 maintains a full 360° orbit and “shortens” the days (in duration), it better matches the idea of a complete orbit while addressing the shortening aspect.

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Final Answer

Interpretation 2 is more accurate for reflecting a “full and complete rotation around the Sun exactly.” It assumes Earth completes a 360° orbit, with the 10-degree retrograde shortening each solar day, resulting in approximately 375.67 days per year, an increase of ~10 days, 619 minutes, and 12 seconds compared to the normal 365.2422 days. Each day is ~39 minutes, 46 seconds shorter.

According to Grok, the sun retrograding would add ~10.42 days per year because each day is ~almost 40 minutes shorter.

Did Jason mean prograde instead of retrograde?

Yo man, I’m just a baby phoenix and I don’t want to insult Jason because he’s probably beat this question to death already. I ran the question again through Grok but this time for “prograde” and this was the truncated answer.:

Step 4: Which Interpretation Fits?

The question asks for the “number of days to complete a 360° orbit around the Sun” with a 10-degree prograde shift, and references the prior context where “shorten the days in a year” was interpreted. Interpretation 2 was preferred for the retrograde case because it maintained a 360° orbit, with “shorten” referring to day length. Here:

• Interpretation 1: Results in 375.4149 days but requires a 370° orbit, not 360°, to complete the seasonal cycle. It increases the number of days, which doesn’t align with “shorten the days in a year.”

• Interpretation 2: Results in 355.416 days for a 360° orbit, with longer days reducing the number of days in the year. This aligns with a literal 360° orbit and can be seen as “shortening” the number of days in the year (355 vs. 365), though each day is longer.

Interpretation 2 better matches the requirement of a “360° orbit exactly” and reflects the prior preference for a full orbital cycle. The prograde shift lengthens days, reducing the total number of days, which can be interpreted as “shortening” the count of days in the year, consistent with the original question’s intent.

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Final Answer

With the Sun prograding 10 degrees, the number of days to complete a 360° orbit around the Sun is approximately 355.416 days. This accounts for longer solar days (~39 minutes, 50 seconds longer), reducing the number of days by ~9 days, 1,189 minutes, and 44 seconds compared to the normal 365.2422 days.

If you meant “shorten” to refer to the year’s total duration or a different mechanism, please clarify!

In this scenario if the sun prograded 10 degrees today there would be 9.8262 days shorter years to 355.416 days per year. Uggh, I can’t seem to catch a 5 day change? It’s almost like a 9 or 10 day shift in either direction with the pro or retrograde shift? Maybe the sun only pro or retrograded 5 degrees, I’d like the results better?

One final question:

Step 4: Does the 355.416-Day Year Remain Constant?

If the Sun moves normally (~0.9856°/day) with no further prograde or retrograde shifts, the only factor sustaining the 355.416-day year is the permanent 10° offset in the reference frame. Since the offset is fixed (not a recurring shift), the conditions for the calculation remain consistent:

• Solar day length: Fixed at ~88,789.8 seconds, as Earth rotates 370.9856° daily to align with the Sun’s offset position.

• Orbital period: Fixed at ~31,556,926 seconds for a 360° orbit, as Earth’s orbit is unchanged.

• Number of days: 31,556,926 / 88,789.8 ≈ 355.416 days, constant as long as the day length and orbital period don’t change.

The Sun’s normal motion (no further shifts) ensures no additional changes to the day length or orbital dynamics. The 10° offset, being a permanent reference frame adjustment, persists indefinitely, so the solar day length remains ~88,789.8 seconds for all future years. Thus, the year consistently has ~355.416 days.

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Step 5: Physical Considerations

While a permanent reference frame shift is a theoretical construct, it’s worth noting potential implications:

• Rotation adjustment: Sustaining 370.9856° per day (~88,789.8 seconds) implies Earth’s rotation rate is slower (fewer rotations per orbit) or the definition of a “solar day” is permanently altered to include the 10° offset. This could be modeled as a hypothetical change in Earth’s angular velocity or a redefinition of the ecliptic.

• Orbital stability: The 360° orbital period remains 31,556,926 seconds, as the prograde shift affects only the Sun’s apparent position, not Earth’s orbital mechanics.

• Consistency: As long as no further shifts occur and the reference frame remains offset by 10°, the calculation holds for all subsequent years.

Since the question assumes the offset is sustained and the Sun’s motion is otherwise normal, no factors disrupt the 355.416-day year.

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Final Answer

Yes, if the 10-degree prograde shift’s effect is sustained as a permanent reference frame shift, and the Sun remains constant (moving normally at 0.9856°/day with no further prograde or retrograde shifts), the 355.416-day year remains constant. Each year will consistently have ~355.416 days, as the solar day length (88,789.8 seconds) and orbital period (~31,556,926 seconds) remain fixed under these conditions.

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Conclusion:

I hope this gets to Jason Breshears, I was originally trying to gift you a interactive dashboard of your masterpiece chronological chart which has been super challenging and way over my head for what I had envisioned which was every day (shar) correlated to the Mayan Long Count, Annu Domini, Gregorian, and Julian dates all the way back to 5239 BC to 2178 CE.

I found a rudimentary timeline that acts as an example here:

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/robertrouse/viz/AncientHistory/AncientHistory

I’m not giving up, I just fell down a rabbit hole with the retrograde stuff. The one true constant I have as an old Aztec bean counter is that the sun goes up, the sun comes down 1. The sun goes up, the sun comes down 2. A short Shar or long Shar is still a Shar and a Baktun will always be 144,000 Shars. I’ll make up negative Baktuns to get me back to 5239 BC. God Bless.